Comments for Hypergraffiti http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com Where I spray-paint my thoughts... Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:23:10 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on Church Politics by trudyj65 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3995 trudyj65 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:23:10 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3995 The issue of women elders is not just a winnable battle, it's a won battle ... both on the denominational level, and in our local church, which (as you remember, Jennifer) voted more than 70% in favour of ordaining women elders nearly 15 years ago. I object to the idea that a group of 10-12 malcontents could hold a church of 120 people hostage and force them to revisit this issue simply because that small group is more vocal and passionate about their minority opinion. As for your saying that I think "the gay marriage issue doesn't really matter," that is far too big a topic for me to address in the comments section of a blog (I have blogged about it before and will again), but the short answer is that when my beliefs (or doubts, or questions) differ from the church's official beliefs, I reserve the right to hold different opinions but I don't think it's my place to try to force the whole church to conform to how I think. Which is the difference between me and the same ultraconservative group I'm talking about -- they, too, differ from the official church on many issues but believe it's their job to constantly attempt to "reform" the church even if they have to be disruptive and offensive to do it. I have no desire to take on that role. I will speak out about what I believe in appropriate forums and try to work for whatever level of change I think is possible, but I don't feel the need to make the church over in my image. If a gay Christian friend asks me about attending church, I would direct them (and have directed them) to the United Church or some other place that will be more welcoming and affirming than my church is. I believe strongly in everyone's right to find a church home where they can feel spiritually blessed and challenged, just as you have done, Jennifer. But in return I expect others, at least my friends, to respect my choices too. The idea of leaving my church holds absolutely no appeal for me. For that reason, while you may believe that "even entering the fray legitimizes their logic," that's not the belief that directs my choices and actions. If my church is a part of who I am and I am a part of the church, then I have a responsibility to make my voice heard and be a part of deciding what direction it goes in -- especially when a minority is trying to impose their views on the majority and attempting to create the impression that conservative Adventists are the only ones who are passionate about their faith and their church to the point of being willing to fight for what they believe. The issue of women elders is not just a winnable battle, it’s a won battle … both on the denominational level, and in our local church, which (as you remember, Jennifer) voted more than 70% in favour of ordaining women elders nearly 15 years ago. I object to the idea that a group of 10-12 malcontents could hold a church of 120 people hostage and force them to revisit this issue simply because that small group is more vocal and passionate about their minority opinion.

As for your saying that I think “the gay marriage issue doesn’t really matter,” that is far too big a topic for me to address in the comments section of a blog (I have blogged about it before and will again), but the short answer is that when my beliefs (or doubts, or questions) differ from the church’s official beliefs, I reserve the right to hold different opinions but I don’t think it’s my place to try to force the whole church to conform to how I think. Which is the difference between me and the same ultraconservative group I’m talking about — they, too, differ from the official church on many issues but believe it’s their job to constantly attempt to “reform” the church even if they have to be disruptive and offensive to do it. I have no desire to take on that role. I will speak out about what I believe in appropriate forums and try to work for whatever level of change I think is possible, but I don’t feel the need to make the church over in my image.

If a gay Christian friend asks me about attending church, I would direct them (and have directed them) to the United Church or some other place that will be more welcoming and affirming than my church is. I believe strongly in everyone’s right to find a church home where they can feel spiritually blessed and challenged, just as you have done, Jennifer. But in return I expect others, at least my friends, to respect my choices too.

The idea of leaving my church holds absolutely no appeal for me. For that reason, while you may believe that “even entering the fray legitimizes their logic,” that’s not the belief that directs my choices and actions. If my church is a part of who I am and I am a part of the church, then I have a responsibility to make my voice heard and be a part of deciding what direction it goes in — especially when a minority is trying to impose their views on the majority and attempting to create the impression that conservative Adventists are the only ones who are passionate about their faith and their church to the point of being willing to fight for what they believe.

]]> Comment on Church Politics by Jennifer Morgan http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3994 Jennifer Morgan Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:06:46 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3994 So are you saying that the gay marriage issue doesn't really matter, or that the women's elder issue is a winnable battle? As you know, I've stopped attending the local Adventist church because of both issues. I think extreme right-wing tendencies are inherent in reformation theology. While the SDA church doesn't interpret the Bible literally, most congregations are dominated by people who do. Their faith is built on a shaky foundation of proof texts and a narrow world view, and they believe anything that challenges that is of the Devil. You may be able to outvote them at this point in time, but you will never convert them. Even entering the fray legitimizes their logic. So are you saying that the gay marriage issue doesn’t really matter, or that the women’s elder issue is a winnable battle? As you know, I’ve stopped attending the local Adventist church because of both issues. I think extreme right-wing tendencies are inherent in reformation theology. While the SDA church doesn’t interpret the Bible literally, most congregations are dominated by people who do. Their faith is built on a shaky foundation of proof texts and a narrow world view, and they believe anything that challenges that is of the Devil. You may be able to outvote them at this point in time, but you will never convert them. Even entering the fray legitimizes their logic.

]]> Comment on Church Politics by David Hamstra http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3993 David Hamstra Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:30:25 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3993 The better part of valour... The better part of valour…

]]> Comment on Church Politics by RD http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3991 RD Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:08:04 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3991 I was walking down the aisle at a store this afternoon and came across twoo older women getting caught up on gossip. "We've been through hell at our church recently, you know. Now we're looking for a new pastor... ." It struck me as sad that they are still at it at this point in their lives. Hell? In church? Oh, the irony. I was walking down the aisle at a store this afternoon and came across twoo older women getting caught up on gossip. “We’ve been through hell at our church recently, you know. Now we’re looking for a new pastor… .” It struck me as sad that they are still at it at this point in their lives. Hell? In church? Oh, the irony.

]]> Comment on Church Politics by trudyj65 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3990 trudyj65 Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:45:58 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3990 I will provide updates as available...discreetly, of course! I will provide updates as available…discreetly, of course!

]]> Comment on Church Politics by David Hamstra http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3989 David Hamstra Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:35:43 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3989 So don't leave us hanging. Tell us how it went! :D So don’t leave us hanging. Tell us how it went! :D

]]> Comment on Financial Planning for Fourth Graders by patty http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/financial-planning-for-fourth-graders/#comment-3988 patty Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:10:19 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1366#comment-3988 I suppose as mothers we run the risk of being blamed for everything. I'm dreading it, myself, since I'm the heavy in this house. But SOMEone has to be the heavy! Otherwise, we'd be raising a holy terror, and that just wouldn't do. At least, I don't feel alone anymore. :) I suppose as mothers we run the risk of being blamed for everything. I’m dreading it, myself, since I’m the heavy in this house. But SOMEone has to be the heavy! Otherwise, we’d be raising a holy terror, and that just wouldn’t do. At least, I don’t feel alone anymore. :)

]]> Comment on Church Politics by Sharon http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3986 Sharon Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:38:23 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3986 I have long been disturbed by the rationale which starts a discussion or a rebuttal with "Sister White said..."---or the several equivalents of "we've always done it this way..." Our small local church has experienced a schism which led to two ridiculously small congregations meeting separately each week. Our local elder is currently trying to fire us up with the disput involving what kind of science will be taught at La Sierra College. Why do I think we don't have an influence or maybe a real input there? Reading I've done in the past few years which includes historic documents, the Glacier View/Desmond Ford debacle/ Spectrum blog when I feel brave enough to wade through some of the acidic commentary---some of these things promote thought, perhaps a more balanced view--sometimes it merely results in discouragement. I've come to suspect that true spirituality and a resilent personal faith must trancend the denominational differences. I have long been disturbed by the rationale which starts a discussion or a rebuttal with “Sister White said…”—or the several equivalents of “we’ve always done it this way…”
Our small local church has experienced a schism which led to two ridiculously small congregations meeting separately each week. Our local elder is currently trying to fire us up with the disput involving what kind of science will be taught at La Sierra College. Why do I think we don’t have an influence or maybe a real input there?
Reading I’ve done in the past few years which includes historic documents, the Glacier View/Desmond Ford debacle/ Spectrum blog when I feel brave enough to wade through some of the acidic commentary—some of these things promote thought, perhaps a more balanced view–sometimes it merely results in discouragement. I’ve come to suspect that true spirituality and a resilent personal faith must trancend the denominational differences.

]]> Comment on Church Politics by trudyj65 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3985 trudyj65 Sun, 08 Nov 2009 23:28:49 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3985 God bless you, Ansku, and all those like you!! Yes, Aunt Ruth, that does make me crazy. God bless you, Ansku, and all those like you!!

Yes, Aunt Ruth, that does make me crazy.

]]> Comment on Church Politics by Ansku http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/church-politics/#comment-3984 Ansku Sun, 08 Nov 2009 21:58:01 +0000 http://trudymorgancole.wordpress.com/?p=1380#comment-3984 I SO hate church politics, too. But you've thought about the categories well. And sometimes the issue is so important that you just have to get in, like the one you have on at the moment. And that should, I hope, be possible to "win". Blessings to you and your church from a woman pastor (in ministry soon 20 years). :-) I SO hate church politics, too. But you’ve thought about the categories well. And sometimes the issue is so important that you just have to get in, like the one you have on at the moment. And that should, I hope, be possible to “win”.

Blessings to you and your church from a woman pastor (in ministry soon 20 years). :-)

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